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Post subject: Did Jesus die on earth before he was raised to the heaven?
Did Jesus die on earth before he was raised to the heaven?
Hello All
I was surprised to find many Muslims believe that Jesus was raised alive "i.e. he never died", and because Allah knew that this confusion will happen, Allah answered it in the Quran, let's have look at the verse where Allah said to Jesus that He will cause him to die "natural death" then He will raise the dead Jesus to the heaven:
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
RASHAD KHALIFA: Thus, GOD said, O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes. {The Quran ; 3:55}
إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (55)
-> It is obvious to me that Rashad Khalifa translation to that specific verse is the most accurate one, btw I disagree with most of his other stuff
-> What amazes me is this, the Arabic verse is clear, Allah said to Jesus "Ini Motawafika Wa Rafe'ak"
-> For Jesus to die on earth was a must for Allah because this is what He said in the Quran, and we know that Allah does not change His words:
"Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back." {The Quran ; 29:57}
كُلُّ نَفْسٍ ذَائِقَةُ الْمَوْتِ ثُمَّ إِلَيْنَا تُرْجَعُونَ (57)
In fact the same message that every soul must taste death was repeated in another 2 locations, {3:185}, and {21:35}, so why it is strange to accept what Allah clearly stated in 3:55 regarding putting Jesus to death?
The important fact is this, I really care less about this concept of Jesus have not died yet then his return, all I care about that the Judgment Day is coming, while to a degree I may believe in Jesus return, but this has no effect in how I believe in Allah, His prophets, His angels, His books and His Judgment Day. What bothers me though is this, many Muslims think he must return so he dies because he did not die yet.
The key word in hand is Motawafika and it seems they understand it as shown in some English translations as takes you back to Himself, again a total mistranslation to a CLEAR ARABIC WORD within its context that means Death, WAFFAH, while I agree it also means To take back, but the context of the verses clearly confirms it means its common meaning which is Death
The Quran use of that Arabic word in all other locations meant death, why in 3:55 they take it as the other very rare meaning?
Lets look at a few examples from the Clear Arabic Quran:
It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs for those who reflect.
[The Quran ; 39:42]
اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَى عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَى إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَآيَاتٍ لِّقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ (42)
-> The verse is crystal clear , the same word used Yatawafa to describe both death and sleep, both share a simple fact as described in the verse that Allah removes the SOUL from our bodies when we sleep and when we die, for those who must die the souls will not come back and for the others who still have to live, their souls will return to their bodies. The argument that Jesus didnlt die by those Muslims can be demolished here even by using the meaning they prefer which is To take back, i.e. Allah will take back Jesuss soul, and consequently because the soul came out of the body, the body must go into a death or a sleep mode.
-> We certainly know that sleeping feels exactly like death , I can expand on this by using the Quran. So for some Muslims to come and tell us that Motawafika does not mean put to death, they have to be wrong, at least it will mean that Jesus soul was forced out of his body and he went into a coma or sort of a sleep the least
If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying): "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire- {The Quran ; 8:50}
وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ وَذُوقُواْ عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ (50)
-> The word was used above and it meant death.
Say: "O ye men! If ye are in doubt as to my religion, (behold!) I worship not what ye worship, other than Allah! But I worship Allah - Who will take your souls (at death): I am commanded to be (in the ranks) of the Believers, {The Quran ; 10:104}
قُلْ يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِن كُنتُمْ فِي شَكٍّ مِّن دِينِي فَلاَ أَعْبُدُ الَّذِينَ تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلَكِنْ أَعْبُدُ اللّهَ الَّذِي يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ وَأُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (104)
-> Again
It is Allah who creates you and takes your souls at death; and of you there are some who are sent back to a feeble age, so that they know nothing after having known (much): for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Powerful. {The Quran ; 16:70}
وَاللّهُ خَلَقَكُمْ ثُمَّ يَتَوَفَّاكُمْ وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْ لاَ يَعْلَمَ بَعْدَ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا إِنَّ اللّهَ عَلِيمٌ قَدِيرٌ (70)
-> And again
O mankind! if ye have a doubt about the Resurrection, (consider) that We created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech-like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh, partly formed and partly unformed, in order that We may manifest (our power) to you; and We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term, then do We bring you out as babes, then (foster you) that ye may reach your age of full strength; and some of you are called to die, and some are sent back to the feeblest old age, so that they know nothing after having known (much), and (further), thou seest the earth barren and lifeless, but when We pour down rain on it, it is stirred (to life), it swells, and it puts forth every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs). {The Quran ; 22:5}
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِن كُنتُمْ فِي رَيْبٍ مِّنَ الْبَعْثِ فَإِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ مِن مُّضْغَةٍ مُّخَلَّقَةٍ وَغَيْرِ مُخَلَّقَةٍ لِّنُبَيِّنَ لَكُمْ وَنُقِرُّ فِي الْأَرْحَامِ مَا نَشَاء إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ثُمَّ نُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى وَمِنكُم مَّن يُرَدُّ إِلَى أَرْذَلِ الْعُمُرِ لِكَيْلَا يَعْلَمَ مِن بَعْدِ عِلْمٍ شَيْئًا وَتَرَى الْأَرْضَ هَامِدَةً فَإِذَا أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْهَا الْمَاء اهْتَزَّتْ وَرَبَتْ وَأَنبَتَتْ مِن كُلِّ زَوْجٍ بَهِيجٍ (5)
-> What can I say?, well, and again.
Say: The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord." {The Quran ; 32:11}
قُلْ يَتَوَفَّاكُم مَّلَكُ الْمَوْتِ الَّذِي وُكِّلَ بِكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ (11)
-> Another proof that it means Death.
It is He Who has created you from dust then from a sperm-drop, then from a leech-like clot; then does he get you out (into the light) as a child: then lets you (grow and) reach your age of full strength; then lets you become old,- though of you there are some who die before;- and lets you reach a Term appointed; in order that ye may learn wisdom. {The Quran ; 40:67}
هُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَكُم مِّن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ ثُمَّ مِنْ عَلَقَةٍ ثُمَّ يُخْرِجُكُمْ طِفْلًا ثُمَّ لِتَبْلُغُوا أَشُدَّكُمْ ثُمَّ لِتَكُونُوا شُيُوخًا وَمِنكُم مَّن يُتَوَفَّى مِن قَبْلُ وَلِتَبْلُغُوا أَجَلًا مُّسَمًّى وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَعْقِلُونَ (67)
-> More proofs
From what I presented above, it is clear the that the word يُتَوَفَّىYOTAWAFA, can also be read as the word يَتَوَفَّىYATAWAFA means put to death , it is also clear that sleeping is a type of death created by Allah, so if Allah said to Jesus that He Motawafika in 3:55, then it simply means the Jesus soul was forced out of his body, before his body was raised to the heaven by the angels or by any other mean.
The Sunni/Shia believe hard that Jesus return is confirmed by at least two verses in the Quran which we will look at later, for them this add further proofs that he didnt die. But as I stated above, I agree that Jesus may return with the will of Allah, but his return does not mean that he was not put to death by Allah contrary to what Allah stated in His Quran Motawafika, I cant see any problem for our God to raise Jesus again from the dead and send him back to earth to fulfil Allah words if required, in fact one of the sincere brothers Usama Abdullah answering Christianity logic falls to the ground really hard, his logic that the Quran said in 11:40 that all humans must die twice and live twice:
They shall say: Our Lord! twice didst Thou make us subject to death, and twice hast Thou given us life, so we do confess our faults; is there then a way to get out? {The Quran ; 40:11}
قَالُوا رَبَّنَا أَمَتَّنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ وَأَحْيَيْتَنَا اثْنَتَيْنِ فَاعْتَرَفْنَا بِذُنُوبِنَا فَهَلْ إِلَى خُرُوجٍ مِّن سَبِيلٍ (11)
-> With my respect to this man, I cant accept his flawed logic that the above verse stated all humans will die twice and live twice, so he understood it as Jesus did not die otherwise he will be forced to die 3 times, but again which he thinks will conflict with 11:40, but hold on a second, Jesus is a prophet, he is not like us, in fact he was only working for us, so he is dealt with differently by Allah, the Quran told us that prophet Uzair already died 3 times, he was dead, then Allah brought him to life, then Allah put him to death for 100 years then Allah brought him to life again, then Allah put to death again and we know that Allah will bring him to life again on the judgment day, therefore brother Usama logic can not be accepted.
Now , let me comment on the two verses they use as a confirmation of Jesus return:
"And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them." {The Quran ; 4:159} وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا (159)
-> The above translation to 4:159 provided by the Sunni is 100% wrong, they think that the verse means before Jesus dies all the Christians and the Jews must believe in him, I say hold on a minute on that second argument of his return, lets finish the first one first (hid death), the Arabic verse does not mean that Jesus was not put to death by Allah, simply Allah can raise Jesus again from the dead any time He wants for whatever number of times He wants, even if the above verse means that all the Christians and Jews will believe in him at one point in time, the verse still has nothing to do with him being put to death or not.
-> The important point that they blindly ignore this, why not this verse applies at the time when Jesus was put to death by Allah according to 3:55 as I explained earlier?, i.e. there was SOME people of the Book who believed in Jesus, i.e. the verse might be talking about the time in the past just before Jesus was put to death naturally by Allah then raised, in fact the Arabic words may mean that NOT ALL OF THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK WILL BELIEVE IN JESUS, ONLY SOME as the Arabic words suggest: وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ i.e. Some of the people of the Book NOT ALL, it is strange to translate it as ALL THE PEOPLE OF THE BOOK, see, if مِّنْMin was not there, then yes it will mean all the people of the book, but because Min is there then it means some of them and not all.
-> Now if we consider that the verse is talking about Jesus return, then I see no problem with that, Allah will raise Jesus from the dead again, send him to earth to do an important task, then put Jesus to death again, what is wrong with that?, Allah does what He wants when He wants with no restrictions
Well, Allah told us in the Quran that He put prophet Uzair to death for 100 years and He raised him to life again as I explained earlier, same with Abraham, Allah told us that He showed Abraham how He raised the dead, and He told us many times that He will raise us from the dead, in fact He already did as He brought us to life after we never existed dead, everything is possible with Allah
The second verse the Sunni/Shia cults use as a confirmation of Jesus return is the following, please note the translation provided by them:
"And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye me: this is a Straight Way. " {The Quran ; 43:61} وَإِنَّهُ لَعِلْمٌ لِّلسَّاعَةِ فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ هَذَا صِرَاطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ (61)
->Again this verse does not say much other than a clear obvious fact, that Jesus the prophet sent by Allah is a sign to the judgment day , the Arabic word used لَعِلْمٌ is actually more accurate to be translated as Knowledge not Sign because Sign means عِلَامةٌِ , however even if I consider it as translated by thema sign then this sign has passed by the appearance of Jesus on earth for the first time, if he will appear again, then that is ok and I tend to believe that but the verse above can also be understood that he was a sign to the hour when he appeared for the first time to warn his people as all other prophets did, obviously this is clear from the message فَلَا تَمْتَرُنَّ بِهَا وَاتَّبِعُونِ i.e., : therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye me.
-> In fact the Quran has told us the signs of the hour has already passed:
Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them? {The Quran ; 47:18}
فَهَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلَّا السَّاعَةَ أَن تَأْتِيَهُم بَغْتَةً فَقَدْ جَاء أَشْرَاطُهَا فَأَنَّى لَهُمْ إِذَا جَاءتْهُمْ ذِكْرَاهُمْ (18)
-> While I understand perfectly that Allah may also be talking about the future when using the past tense because Allah knowledge is not restricted by time, all I will care about that the hour is coming and the prophets sent by Allah were signs to it and to warn the humans and to educate their knowledge of what they are heading for.
After all the above compelling evidences my Sunni/Shia brothers still argue hard that Jesus didnt die and was raised alive, they brought to me a verse from the Quran suggesting that it was only Jesus who said this in the Quran:
And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life. {The Quran 19:33}
وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا (33)
-> They see it like this, because the verse said وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ, i.e. and on the day I die, it means that Jesus didnt die, I might have given weight to their argument if it was only Jesus who said so, however I wonder how they didnt see 19:15 where it was said about prophet Yehya the exact same:
And peace on him on the day he was born, and on the day he dies, and on the day he is raised to life {The Quran 19:15}
وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا (15)
-> As you can see, it was said about prophet Yehya the exact same and in the same sura and we know that [Yehya died murdered, and that is what وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ means, i.e. and on the day he (Yehya) dies, therefore their logic failed again because the statement in 19:33 about Jesus cant mean that he didnt die if compared with 19:15 statement about Yehya (the exact same)
My conclusion is this:
1) I cant accept that Jesus didnt die yet, because he died naturally according to 3:55
2) I may accept that Jesus will come back for a certain mission but that does not mean he didnt die
3) I believe the majority of humans die and live twice but I firmly believe that the prophets and possibly others can be excluded from that general law according to the will of our God He made that law from the first place, we have two examples from the Quran, prophet Uzair and prophet Jesus, it seems to me that both went through or yet to finish their sequence of 3 lives and 3 deaths
And finally, the only thing that makes me incline to believe that Jesus will return are the following two verses:
"He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." {The Quran 3:46}
وَيُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَمِنَ الصَّالِحِينَ (46)
-> Verse 3:46 clearly says that Jesus will talk to the people when he is a child as well when he is an old man, and because 33 years old Jesus age when he died naturally does not mean an old man which in Arabic: كَهْلاً I lean to believe that he will be raised from the dead again to fulfil a certain mission and then he will talk to the people while is an old man, this description of Jesus speaking to the people while being an old man كَهْلاً was repeated in another location in the Quran:
When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment. {The Quran 5:110}
إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ اذْكُرْ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ إِذْ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ تُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَإِذْ عَلَّمْتُكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَإِذْ تَخْلُقُ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ بِإِذْنِي فَتَنفُخُ فِيهَا فَتَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِي وَتُبْرِىءُ الأَكْمَهَ وَالأَبْرَصَ بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ تُخْرِجُ الْمَوتَى بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ كَفَفْتُ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَنكَ إِذْ جِئْتَهُمْ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ إِنْ هَذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ (110)
Allah knows best
Salam
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Wed 27 Feb, 2008 11:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Tue 06 Mar, 2007 10:45 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
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# okay, bro....u ve got me interested in this topic! i would like to comment on what u have posted, but before i attempt that, i would like to know ur view on verses 4:157 and 4:158!
4:157 That they said (in boast), 'We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah';- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
4:158 Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman
4:158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
# take care! (-:
Posted:
Wed 07 Mar, 2007 2:31 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Salam bro The
It is interesting subject to be honest, I actually found Jesus story is one of the most facsinating prophet stories, let me bring the Arabic text so I can give an opinion:
-> Firstly the verses are talking about Qatl (murder), not Wafah or Maut (Death), so there is no link in here to his death, 4:157 simply denying that the Jews killed Jesus
-> I believe your concern is more about 4:158, well yes it only says that Jesus was raised however that was not the only verse talking about that, as I showed earlier, we have the following verse that adds another piece of information to 4:158:
-> See, in 4:157 Allah only said "Rafaahu" (Raised him)
-> But in 3:158 Allah said "Mutawafika Wa Rafiaak", i.e. "Put you to death then raise you"
therefore the two verses 4:157 and 3:158 must be taken together, we just can't ignore the fact that Allah said Mutawafika before Rafiaak
even logically, if Mutawafika mean to take him back then we really donlt need Rafiaak, because Rafiaak also means indirectly that Allah took him back to the heaven
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
It is interesting subject to be honest, I actually found Jesus story is one of the most facsinating prophet stories, let me bring the Arabic text so I can give an opinion:
-> Firstly the verses are talking about Qatl (murder), not Wafah or Maut (Death), so there is no link in here to his death, 4:157 simply denying that the Jews killed Jesus
# to start with, bro, methinks the word for death is "mawt", and not "wafa"!
# i will come back to this verse later! (-:
Quote:
-> I believe your concern is more about 4:158, well yes it only says that Jesus was raised however that was not the only verse talking about that, as I showed earlier, we have the following verse that adds another piece of information to 4:158:
4:158 Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman
4:158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
.....the verse starts with "bal", and u will perhaps agree that it ("bal") is used to contradict or negate! so what v have pretty clear is that god is negating or contradicting something!
# further, the words are "rafa-au allahu ilayhi"! now then, some peepz claim that the rafa'a here mean jesus was exalted, which is complete nonsense, as the verse clearly used the preposition "towards"! what v have here is a physical rafa'a.....the question v beget is: who got rafa'a?
## for nafs, the feminine is used; however, v see that the masculine pronouns have been used in 3:55 and 4:158! so, what apparently follows is that it was the physical body of christ that was lifted up.....do v agree so far?
i have tried to impress this much so far:
a. ) the rafa'a of christ was a physical one and it was his body that was lifted up!
the next question v come across is: was christ "alive" or "dead" when god lifted his body?
for this, let us turn to 3:55, which u have posted:
Quote:
-> But in 3:158 Allah said "Mutawafika Wa Rafiaak", i.e. "Put you to death then raise you"
therefore the two verses 4:157 and 3:158 must be taken together, we just can't ignore the fact that Allah said Mutawafika before Rafiaak
even logically, if Mutawafika mean to take him back then we really donlt need Rafiaak, because Rafiaak also means indirectly that Allah took him back to the heaven
# i think v will agree that the word mutawaffika comes from "wafa", meaning "fulfill"!
there are plenty of verses which will demonstrate this, but i will quote 1 verse which is of particular interest, since it uses the form "tuwaffa":
وَمَا كَانَ لِنَبِيٍّ أنْ يَغُلَّ وَمَنْ يَغْلُلْ يَأتِ بِمَا غَلَّ يَوْمَ الْقِيَمَةِ ثُمَّ تُوَفَّى كُلُّ نَفْسٍ مَا كَسَبَتْ وَهُمْ لَا يُظْلَمُونَ 3:161
3:161 Wama kana linabiyyin anyaghulla waman yaghlul ya/ti bima ghalla yawma alqiyamatithumma tuwaffa kullu nafsin ma kasabat wahum layuthlamoona
3:161 It is not for any prophet to embezzle. Whoso embezzleth will bring what he embezzled with him on the Day of Resurrection. Then every soul will be paid in full what it hath earned; and they will not be wronged.
....the verse says "tuwaffa kullu nafsin ma kasabat"!
v know that "kasabat" means to earn, so there can be lil doubt that "tuwaffa" here means "fulfilled/returned (compensated)", and not "death"!
...and i insist that there is no reason to insist that the other forms at different places be translated as "death"!
# v know the word for death: maut, v know for alive: hayy; there is not a single instance in the entire quran where the word "maut" has been used regarding christ in this context; instead, the words "mutawaffika" and "tuwaffaytanee", both derived from "wafa/fulfill" have been used! let us now look at another interesting verse:
اللَّهُ يَتَوَفَّى الْأَنْفُسَ حِينَ مَوْتِهَا وَالَّتِي لَمْ تَمُتْ فِي مَنَامِهَا فَيُمْسِكُ الَّتِي قَضَى عَلَيْهَا الْمَوْتَ وَيُرْسِلُ الْأُخْرَى إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُسَمًّى إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَاءيَتٍ لِقَوْمٍ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ 39:42
39:42 Allah takes the souls at the time of their death, and those that die not during their sleep; then He withholds those on whom He has passed the decree of death and sends the others back till an appointed term; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.
# this verse never ceases to set me wondering, but for the time being i will try to dwell upon that which is relevant to us here!
## the verse make two assertions:
1. that god yutawaffa the anfusa at its period of death, and (also) the nafs that does not die, in its sleep
2. the nafs for which death has been decreed, it holds/immobilises it; and the other it sends towards a span/term/ajal named(determined)
# v have to bear in mind here that the word yatwaffa (in this verse) appears along with the word "nafs/anfus"! further, it is easy to appreciate that the mere act of yatwaffa of the soul does not imply "death/maut"! this can be verified from the words "lam tamut fee manamiha": the soul which is not at it's period of death is aslo yatawaffa! this also makes it clear that sleep is not death!
i hope it is clear here that departure of soul (if the word yatawaffa is understood as taking back) does not constitute "death"!
كَيْفَ تَكْفُرُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَكُنتُمْ أمْوَتًا فَأحْيَكُمْ ثُمَّ يُمِيتُكُمْ ثُمَّ يُحْيِيكُمْ ثُمَّ اِلَيْهِ تُرْجَعُونَ 2:28
2:28 How disbelieve ye in Allah when ye were dead and He gave life to you! Then He will give you death, then life again, and then unto Him ye will return.
...death/mawt is the absence of life/hayat!
# a person cannot be in a state of "maut" and "hayat" at the same time, but a person can be hayyan even without the nafs! during sleep a person may have his/her nafs taken back, but the person is still "hayy/alive"! the condition of maut is imposed when the person has reached his/her term, till then, a person is still "alive"! how exactly this works out is something v need not speculate over here! (-:
# again, v do not have a verse in the quran which says that the nafs of jesus was seperated from his body - remember, yatawaffa, by itself can only mean "return"! it cannot mean death, as v have seen from 39:42!
i have tried to get this established here:
b. ) that even when the nafs is seperated from the body, it does not constitute death!
c. ) there is no verse in the quran which says that the nafs of christ was seperated from his body!
d. ) yatawaffa need not translate as death, only return/take back!
i will now return to 4:157, which,along with 4:158, builds a very strong case "jesus is dead according to quran":
وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُوا فِيهِ لَفِي شَكٍّ مِنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلَّا اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِينًا 4:157
4:157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
...the verse starts with a claim that some people made - that they had killed the christ, and immediately negates their claim with an assertive "and not did they kill him, and not did they crucify him"!
# there can be no doubt here that they did have a design to kill christ...unless they had made an attempt to kill, they could not have made that claim! so, without doubt, they certainly designed to kill the messiah!
## i want us to concentrate on what the verse next says:
وَلَكِنْ شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ , walakin shubbiha lahum
the word used is "shubbi"......the root sh-b-h stands for resemblance/sameness/alikeness, and this can be verified by looking up the verses 2:70 and 2:118!
let's now look at the verse again:
and their saying, "lo! v killed the messiah, jesus - son of mary"; and not did they kill him and not did they crucify him, and only was it made similar/alikeness to them...
# v have a very clear picture now: they surely did not kill christ, but something bearing resemblance to it was indeed manifested upon them!
## v can glean another fact from this verse: that they did not see christ after this incident...cuz had these peepz seen him alive, they would not have made those claims! nor does the quran say that they are lying....had they been lying, v would have been told that they are lying - simple as that; but instead v are told that they are in doubt/conjecture about it!
# so the picture v have is this:
they tried to kill christ....a likeness of christ's killing was shown to them...and it caused them to believe that they had managed to kill the christ....and after that they never saw christ again!
## v can be pretty sure that this was the end of christ's interaction with these peepz! had they seen christ roaming around, they would have realised they failed in their designs to kill the messiah! this is further clarified by the verse 5:17! v now need to answer pertaining to christ's affairs post this incident - what happened to christ? where did he go?
..and i believe the "bal" at the start of 4:158 answers precisely this question! the verse immediately follows the incident, and like i said, negates their claims! not only does it negate their claim, it also tells us what really happened to jesus, as opposed to what they thought/conjectured happened:
4:158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
# the reason they never saw christ after the incident was that he was lifted up by god!
...again, v can have lil doubt that the mutawaffika and rafaika in 3:55 also relate to this incident! i tried to show earlier that even if nafs is seperated from the body, a person does not die! however, i will agree that the context needs to be taken into account to get an understanding of the disputed word! for us, the rest of the words of some of these verses are established, v only need to see how the concerned word best suits the context!
1. i think it's plain that the body of christ was lifted up....the question is whether this body was alive or dead! again, if he was "dead", then i dont see any more sense, or norm, in lifting up a dead jesus than a live jesus!
2. i have tried to show that even without the nafs a person still is hayat....he has not been handed over to death! so, what remains, is to determine whether the nafs was indeed seperated from the body before he was lifted up!
3. again, if anybody insists that "yatawaffa" means taking back the soul, then in 39:42, v will have god taking back the souls of the souls (yatawaffa aanfusa)! so, at the very best, v can have yatawaffa to only mean return/taking back!
4. i dont find any instance where god tells a prophet that he will cause him to die and lift up his dead body! to do what? enbalm it?
5. that christ has not died yet does not mean christ is immortal!
let me now present another verse, 5:117:
مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلَّا مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنْ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنْتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَأَنْتَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ 5:117
5:117 Ma qultu lahum illa ma amartanee bihi ani oAAbudoo Allaha rabbee warabbakum wakuntu AAalayhim shaheedan ma dumtu feehim falamma tawaffaytanee kunta anta alrraqeeba AAalayhim waanta AAala kulli shay-in shaheedun
5: 117 I spake unto them only that which Thou commandedst me, (saying): Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. I was a witness of them while I dwelt among them, and when Thou tookest me Thou wast the Watcher over them. Thou art Witness over all things.
....note what christ says: i was a witness over them ma dumtu feehim falamma tawaffaytanee kunta....
# still no mention of mawt and hayat....christ does not tell god that he was a witness to them whilst he was alive; only that he was a witness while he stayed amongst them! nor does he say that thou wert the keeper/guardian over them when he died; only when "tawaffaytanee"!
what i have tried to get to, here, is this:
e. ) there is not a single verse which talks about the death of christ!
i will summarise what i have attempted to show thus far:
a. ) the rafa'a of christ was a physical one, and it was his body that was lifted up!
b. ) that even when the nafs is seperated from the body, it does not constitute death!
c. ) there is no verse in the quran which says that the nafs of christ was seperated from his body!
d. ) yatawaffa need not translate as death or taking the soul back, only return/take back!
e. ) there is not a single verse which talks about the mawt/death of christ!
# i wonder how much i have been able to put across legibly,but i would like to read what u have to say! so far i have only tried to show that there is no verse in the quran which tells us, positively, about the death of christ! but 4:157-158 clearly tell us that after the "incident", christ was lifted up from amongst this prople! (-:
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Do you get my logic mate?
# trying, bro! : grin :
## salam, bro! (-:
Posted:
Thu 08 Mar, 2007 10:56 pm
The Rook
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i wrote:
## v can be pretty sure that this was the end of christ's interaction with these peepz! had they seen christ roaming around, they would have realised they failed in their designs to kill the messiah! this is further clarified by the verse 5:17! v now need to answer pertaining to christ's affairs post this incident - what happened to christ? where did he go?
# i ve mistakenly typed "5:17", it should be 5:117!
Posted:
Thu 08 Mar, 2007 11:07 pm
The Rook
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# cant help being myself :-S
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i wrote:
i will now return to 4:157, which,along with 4:158, builds a very strong case "jesus is dead according to quran":
# should read..ahem...."...strong case against"jesus is dead according to quran:" : duh :
Posted:
Thu 08 Mar, 2007 11:09 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Ok mate will read throughly and respond in buts and pieces inshallah
you have to know that at the end of the day I really careless that he died or not
what I care about is the meaning of the words Mutawafika and Tawafaitani
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# yups, bro...take care! (-:
Posted:
Fri 09 Mar, 2007 12:47 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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The wrote:
# yups, bro...take care! (-:
Salam bro
Ok, I read your comment, I can see where you are mixing things up, let me start by saying that your understanding is wrong due to the fact that you are mixing two different words, Wafa & Tawafa, I even doubt that both have the same root, however I dont use the common fallacy of roots the non Arabic speakers always resort to trying to understand the Quran, to understand the Quran words meaning we need to use the Quran to achieve that.
Wafa is a verb, an action done by a human to the self, it means to fulfil
Tawafa is also a verb but the action done by another entity on humans and it means cause to fulfil,
I.e. when Allah, or the Angels or the Angel of DEATH perform (Tawafa) on us it means they caused us to fulfil our appointed term of living, i.e. we will be caused to die
You problem that you want to see the word Mawt (DEATH) for you to believe that Tawafa means to cause to die, well I have a surprise for you, I posted what you want in my first comment but it seems you overlooked it, lets have another look:
Say: The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord. [The Quran ; 32:11]
قُلْ يَتَوَفَّاكُم مَّلَكُ الْمَوْتِ الَّذِي وُكِّلَ بِكُمْ ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّكُمْ تُرْجَعُونَ (11)
-> Clear as light, يَتَوَفَّاكُم مَّلَكُ الْمَوْتِ, Yatawafakum Malik Al Mawt, i.e., The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls, now let me ask you when the Angel of DEATH (Malik Al Mawt), Yatawafina, does it mean to you that the angel of death is not going to cause us to die?, of course that is what the Angel is going to do for us, this is his job, Malik Al Mawt, i.e. the Angel of Mawt is in charge to cause us to DIE. i.e. our term in this life is fulfilled
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The wrote:
i will summarise what i have attempted to show thus far:
Salam bro
Let me reply to you summary
The wrote:
a. ) the rafa'a of christ was a physical one, and it was his body that was lifted up!
That was after Allah Tawafa Isa, i.e. Allah caused Isa to fulfil his appointed term in this life, i.e. caused him to die
The wrote:
b. ) that even when the nafs is seperated from the body, it does not constitute death!
well, the body is not going to do any physical action if the soul existed the body, either we will be sleep or dead if our soul existed the body
Allah clearly told us indorectly the death is similar to sleep
The wrote:
c. ) there is no verse in the quran which says that the nafs of christ was seperated from his body!
Of course there is, the one I posted about causing him to die or sleep then rasing his dead or sleep body
The wrote:
d. ) yatawaffa need not translate as death or taking the soul back, only return/take back!
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body
The wrote:
e. ) there is not a single verse which talks about the mawt/death of christ!
There is actually, 19:33 same as 19:15 which is talking about the death of Yahya
The wrote:
# i wonder how much i have been able to put across legibly,but i would like to read what u have to say! so far i have only tried to show that there is no verse in the quran which tells us, positively, about the death of christ!
well there is, 19:33 is clearly telling us the Isa is going to die one day, Yawm Amoot, exactly as it was said about Yahya in 19:15
The wrote:
but 4:157-158 clearly tell us that after the "incident", christ was lifted up from amongst this prople! (-:
and 3:55 cleary added an extra piece of infomartion in 3:55, which is Isa was caused to Tawafa before his body was raised
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Ok, I read your comment, I can see where you are mixing things up, let me start by saying that your understanding is wrong due to the fact that you are mixing two different words, Wafa & Tawafa, I even doubt that both have the same root, however I don’t use the common fallacy of roots the non Arabic speakers always resort to trying to understand the Quran, to understand the Quran words meaning we need to use the Quran to achieve that.
Wafa is a verb, an action done by a human to the self, it means to fulfil
Tawafa is also a verb but the action done by another entity on humans and it means cause to fulfil,
I.e. when Allah, or the Angels or the Angel of DEATH perform (Tawafa) on us it means they caused us to fulfil our appointed term of living, i.e. we will be caused to die
# that is incorrect, bro! the word "mutawaffa" does seem to come from "wafa"!
...ur saying that "wafa" and "tawaffa" are from different roots is like saying "mutakallim" does not come from "k-l-m"! or that "mutashabiha" does not come from "sh-b-h"!
# but i was expecting this argument, bro, which is why i specifically singled out 3:161 for u:
تُوَفَّى كُلُّ نَفْسٍ مَا كَسَبَتْ
....tuwaffa kulli nafsin ma kasabat.....the form t-w-f, just as u want? and what does it mean? (-:
Quote:
You problem that you want to see the word Mawt (DEATH) for you to believe that Tawafa means to cause to die, well I have a surprise for you, I posted what you want in my first comment but it seems you overlooked it, let’s have another look:
# nopes, my problem is that peepz equate, sans reason, tawaffa with death! moreover, to insist that it's usage should convey only death is simply not on!
...it's like saying "b-a(yn)-th" (rising/resurrection) and h-y (living) are the same! moreover, it would be real weird to insist that everytime b-a-th is used, it has to mean resurrection!
....so i dont see how a similar insistence about "mutawaafa" is any more acceptable! (-:
Quote:
Say: ‘The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls: then shall ye be brought back to your Lord.
[The Quran ; 32:11]
-> Clear as light, ” يَتَوَفَّاكُم مَّلَكُ الْمَوْتِ”, “Yatawafakum Malik Al Mawt”, i.e., ” The Angel of Death, put in charge of you, will (duly) take your souls”, now let me ask you when the Angel of DEATH (Malik Al Mawt), Yatawafina, does it mean to you that the angel of death is not going to cause us to die?, of course that is what the Angel is going to do for us, this is his job, Malik Al Mawt, i.e. the Angel of Mawt is in charge to cause us to DIE. i.e. our term in this life is fulfilled
# u are still confusing two different concepts, bro!
# v have seen that tawaffa need not mean "death" or "taking the souls".......39:42 makes it clear that god "yatawaffa ananfus"...
...if v take ur interpretation it would mean that god either kills the soul during sleep, or takes away the souls of the souls! (-:
the verse says lam tamut fee manamiha, which clearly means that the soul is not at death...so that rules out yatawaffa meaning death!
further....to say that god takes back the souls of the souls is seemingly absurd...so that rules out yatawaffa meaning to take back souls!
..so all yatawaffa can mean is return/take back! (-:
# the quran establishes that when death is decreed, the souls are taken and not sent back....then how can v insist that the mere act of taking a soul is death?
if death has been decreed, the souls will be taken away and not returned.......it's from quran: 39:42! (-:
Quote:
Let me reply to you summary
That was after Allah Tawafa Isa, i.e. Allah caused Isa to fulfil his appointed term in this life, i.e. caused him to die
# ah! but u are wrong, bro...nowhere do u find that tawaffa means to "fulfill the appointed term for life"!
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well, the body is not going to do any physical action if the soul existed the body, either we will be sleep or dead if our soul existed the body
# doesnt matter, bro...when u are sleeping, u are "alive"....dont let me v are dead and breathing in r sleep! (-:
Quote:
Allah clearly told us indorectly the death is similar to sleep
# but it doesnt tell us sleep is death.....it told us that god takes the souls at sleep and returns the souls for which death has not been decreed!
....death has not been decreed.....
ur soul is taken away despite no decree of death......ur soul is taken away in sleep despite no death...
when v are not dead....v are alive...so do v agree v are only sleeping....not dead....v are alive? (-:
Quote:
Of course there is, the one I posted about causing him to die or sleep then rasing his dead or sleep body
# where does it say that the soul will be taken, bro?
if u say "tawaffa" means taking away the soul, then in 39:42 it should mean that god takes away the souls of the souls (yatawaffa ananfus)...is it so, bro?
does god take away the souls of the souls? (-:
Quote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body
# i agree...in context of the word mawt it would mean for the purpose of death....but in its absence there is no reason to understand death!
again, v know "b-a(yn)-th" is used for resurrection in the quran....but it is in the context of qiyamah...right? everytime v come across "b-a-th" v dont understand it as resurrection!
did the bani israel, in 2:246, ask their prophet to resurrect a dead person to be their king, that they may fight in the sabeel of god? (-:
Quote:
There is actually, 19:33 same as 19:15 which is talking about the death of Yahya
# the verse doesnt specify any time frame, bro...if it does then i am most willing to be ur audience! (-:
Quote:
well there is, 19:33 is clearly telling us the Isa is going to die one day, Yawm Amoot, exactly as it was said about Yahya in 19:15
# yes...the verses are identical; but does that mean they have died after living the same number of years? then why should v think it means that they are both already dead? (-:
and 3:55 cleary added an extra piece of infomartion in 3:55, which is Isa was caused to Tawafa before his body was raised
# lolz! back to square 1! : grin :
# why tell jesus that it is going to cause him to die and raise his dead body?
# what was the "shubbiha" which caused them to think they had slain christ?
# do u think they crucified him and god caused him to die on the cross? and later (god) raised his dead body?
or that god caused him to die before they crucified him, and then later, after the body was brought down from the cross, god lifted the dead body?
# v can be sure that he was raised around the time the incident took place.....that some resemblance was shown to them which made them think they had killed the christ....and that christ did not stay amongst them after that...do v agree?
# v have a verse where god causes a bloke to die, does not lift his dead body...and then resurrects it:
2:259 Aw kaallathee marra AAala qaryatin wahiya khawiyatun AAala AAurooshiha qala anna yuhyee hathihi Allahu baAAda mawtiha faamatahu Allahu mi-ata AAamin thumma baAAathahu qala kam labithta qala labithtu yawman aw baAAda yawmin qala bal labithta mi-ata AAamin faonthur ila taAAamika washarabika lam yatasannah waonthur ila himarika walinajAAalaka ayatan lilnnasi waonthur ila alAAithami kayfa nunshizuha thumma naksooha lahman falamma tabayyana lahu qala aAAlamu anna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun
2:259 Or (bethink thee of) the like of him who, passing by a township which had fallen into utter ruin, exclaimed: How shall Allah give this township life after its death? And Allah made him die a hundred years, then brought him back to life. He said: How long hast thou tarried? (The man) said: I have tarried a day or part of a day. (He) said: Nay, but thou hast tarried for a hundred years. Just look at thy food and drink which have not rotted! Look at thine ass! And, that We may make thee a token unto mankind, look at the bones, how We adjust them and then cover them with flesh! And when (the matter) became clear unto him, he said: I know now that Allah is Able to do all things.
# the word used is "mawt"...not "tawaffa";...further no "rafa'a" of his dead body! and he was resurrected! (-:
...then why raise the dead body of christ? (-:
# do v agree or disagree that when the soul is taken away it is not death? as u clearly demonstrated, the word "tawaffa" in context of mawt will imply that the soul has completed its term of life....but in the absence of this context v need not assume death! (-:
# take care...salam bro!
Posted:
Fri 09 Mar, 2007 10:01 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
opps....i screwed up while posting...this part got included in a quote:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Let me reply to you summary
That was after Allah Tawafa Isa, i.e. Allah caused Isa to fulfil his appointed term in this life, i.e. caused him to die
# ah! but u are wrong, bro...nowhere do u find that tawaffa means to "fulfill the appointed term for life"!
Quote:
well, the body is not going to do any physical action if the soul existed the body, either we will be sleep or dead if our soul existed the body
# doesnt matter, bro...when u are sleeping, u are "alive"....dont let me v are dead and breathing in r sleep! (-:
Quote:
Allah clearly told us indorectly the death is similar to sleep
# but it doesnt tell us sleep is death.....it told us that god takes the souls at sleep and returns the souls for which death has not been decreed!
....death has not been decreed.....
ur soul is taken away despite no decree of death......ur soul is taken away in sleep despite no death...
when v are not dead....v are alive...so do v agree v are only sleeping....not dead....v are alive? (-:
Quote:
Of course there is, the one I posted about causing him to die or sleep then rasing his dead or sleep body
# where does it say that the soul will be taken, bro?
if u say "tawaffa" means taking away the soul, then in 39:42 it should mean that god takes away the souls of the souls (yatawaffa ananfus)...is it so, bro?
does god take away the souls of the souls? (-:
Quote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body
# i agree...in context of the word mawt it would mean for the purpose of death....but in its absence there is no reason to understand death!
again, v know "b-a(yn)-th" is used for resurrection in the quran....but it is in the context of qiyamah...right? everytime v come across "b-a-th" v dont understand it as resurrection!
did the bani israel, in 2:246, ask their prophet to resurrect a dead person to be their king, that they may fight in the sabeel of god? (-:
Quote:
There is actually, 19:33 same as 19:15 which is talking about the death of Yahya
# the verse doesnt specify any time frame, bro...if it does then i am most willing to be ur audience! (-:
Quote:
well there is, 19:33 is clearly telling us the Isa is going to die one day, Yawm Amoot, exactly as it was said about Yahya in 19:15
# yes...the verses are identical; but does that mean they have died after living the same number of years? then why should v think it means that they are both already dead? (-:
and 3:55 cleary added an extra piece of infomartion in 3:55, which is Isa was caused to Tawafa before his body was raised[/quote]
Posted:
Fri 09 Mar, 2007 10:51 pm
The Rook
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
what you didn't reply to 32:11?
let me put it you tis way:
what is the job of Malik Al Mawt?
was that job described by a verb in the Quran?
# u urself answered this question, bro:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body
# the context is clear there...."mawt"...so there v can understand that yatawaffa implies an impending death!
Posted:
Fri 09 Mar, 2007 10:59 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
what you didn't reply to 32:11?
let me put it you tis way:
what is the job of Malik Al Mawt?
was that job described by a verb in the Quran?
The wrote:
# u urself answered this question, bro:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body
Thanks bro but please don't use the FM technique
Caused to fulfill HIS TERM OF LIFE i.e. Death
The wrote:
# the context is clear there...."mawt"...so there v can understand that yatawaffa implies an impending death!
don't understand what you say bro
so 32:11 is highliting the job of Malik Al Mawt, the Angel of Mawt Yatawfa us, i.e. cause us to fulfill our term of life, i.e. cause us to die and that is what Tawafa means
for the Nafs on the JD it is exactly the same Towafi Kul Nafs Ma Amalet, i.e. Kul Nafs will be caused to fulfil the punishment or the rewards of their deeds
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